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story category Bell Canada To Take Ball, Go Home
Fights ruling requiring they share next-gen networks
(old news - 08:55AM Friday Mar 13 2009)
tags: competition · business · Op/Ed · Bell Sympatico · TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Tipped by fatness See Profile
Users in our Canadian broadband forums note that Bell Canada's parent company, BCE is appealing a CRTC decision that would require the carrier to give competitors access to their next generation networks. Like other monopolist carriers with the luxury here and in the UK, Bell Canada is essentially telling the CRTC that unless they're given what they want from the government, they won't upgrade to next-generation technology. Again, like other monopoly carriers, Bell pulls out all the scariest suggestions as to what their decision to play carrot/stick with the government might entail, from the creation of a digital divide -- to further global economic woes:
By inhibiting investments in next-generation networks, the CRTC decision would create a new urban digital divide - in stark contrast to the government's own policy priorities for the Canadian economy. . .The cabinet needs to act urgently to prevent the further damage to the Canadian economy that would result from a slowdown in investment in a sector crucial to all Canadians.
Of course Bell Canada makes an absolutely fantastic profit whether forced to share access to their network or not, so the real issue is that they simply don't want the added competition, because it would reduce revenues. A common refrain from those who dislike mandatory network sharing is that competitors should build their own networks, though in markets where incumbent lobbyists all but directly control lawmakers (and that's very much the case with the CRTC), it quickly becomes an impractical if not impossible request.

In France, local-loop unbundling resulted in competitors getting powerful enough to build their own fiber networks, creating the type of facilities-based competition so many claim they're looking for. Of course, like the U.S., much of Bell Canada's original network was built with taxpayer dollars -- though here in the States, we've since decided that carriers shouldn't be forced to provide access to next-generation networks like FiOS or U-Verse, ensuring a one or two horse competitive race in many markets for years to come.

Canada continues to mirror our broadband policy in the States, a policy that's really quite simple: give the largest phone companies everything they ask for.

Related:
  1. Canadian ISPs (Almost) Come Clean On Throttling
  2. Canadian Consumer Groups Slam CRTC
  3. Bell Canada Discontinuing Video Store
  4. Canada Holds Hearings On ISP Throttling
  5. Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling
  6. Canadian Regulators Send Another Love Letter To Bell Canada
  7. Canadians Take Heed Of Harvard Broadband Study
  8. CRTC Blocks Canada's WIND Wireless Network
Forums » Bell Canada To Take Ball, Go Home
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Post a:
chronoss2009

join:2008-09-23

YOU mean like htey are upgrading when

lets see almost 1.5 years of 256kbit during anytime when a user wants it.
and they want to tell me and the rest of us they are going to slow us more?
FRAK YOU BELL CANADA
time to leave them for good even that 20$ to teksavvy
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL

that's fair

They might calculate that they won't make fabulous profits if they have to share. The government should stick to it's position, and announce plans to build out the infrastructure themselves if none springs up. I think Bell would decide they want to be in control after all.

GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

Re: that's fair

Why should Bell invest billions in infrastructure and then have the gov't force them to sell access to others at cost. That would be a disservice to their stockholders and an extremely stupid action by their management team.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

adisor19

join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications

Re: that's fair

said by GOLFnSUN See Profile :

Why should Bell invest billions in infrastructure and then have the gov't force them to sell access to others at cost. That would be a disservice to their stockholders and an extremely stupid action by their management team.
Because Bell built their current infrastructure and their current market valuation with government $$$, therefor with MY $$$. Why should they get a free ride on my $$ ?!?!? It's a god damn monopoly created with the public's $$ and at such it should server the PUBLIC's interests and NOT their shareholder's interests. And if Bell's management doesn't see it that, the government better force them otherwise. Unlike in your corporate America where corporations decide what you get, i still hold a bit of faith that our Canadian government, as bad as it is at the moment, still has a bit of cojones left to actually serve those who put them in power in the first place.

Adi

history lesson

@bell.ca

from:
GOLFnSUN See Profile

Re: that's fair

Check your history books.

Bell only built parts of the network where the Feds gave them money to (ie: rural areas).

The rest of it was through the initial IPO and subsequent 130+ years of revenue.

adisor19

join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications

Re: that's fair

said by history lesson :

Check your history books.

Bell only built parts of the network where the Feds gave them money to (ie: rural areas).

The rest of it was through the initial IPO and subsequent 130+ years of revenue.
Excuse me ?! YOU should be the one to go back and read the history books. Bell laid out their analog POTS lines with government $$. Period.

Adi

history lesson




from:
GOLFnSUN See Profile

Re: that's fair

Seriously? Did you even bother using Google first before posting a reply before I bitch slap you in front of everyone?

Ok, if you insist:
Detailed history of Bell: »www.bce.ca/en/aboutbce/history/index.php

Copy of 1880 Federal Charter:
»www.bce.ca/en/aboutbce/history/index.php

"By the end of 1880, Sise had purchased the existing telephone interests in Canada, including those of The Dominion Telegraph Company and The Montreal Telegraph Company. The company offered telephone service in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, and Manitoba and had interests in British Columbia."

"The telephone's success rested on creating a network. In the spring of 1881, the Company constructed the first "long-distance" line in Canada between Toronto and Hamilton. The General Manager was so committed to the project that he advanced the funds from his personal savings to ensure its completion."

"Would-be competitors pounced on the article of the law requiring that all patented products must be manufactured in the country. Sise argued that he was complying with this provision. The government disagreed and on January 24, 1885, voided the Bell patent, ending the Company's exclusive right to manufacture and distribute the telephone."

Enjoy the full article.

Like I said before, the myth that Bell's network was built with taxpayer money is mostly false. I say mostly because in typical Fed fashion, when no one wants to provide a city with a service, they either create a Crown Corp or pay an existing company to provide the service instead. Which is what happened in some cities across Canada.

However, as you can see from the link I provided, Bell got it's initial funding from it's IPO and bought other phone companies in order to expand, then ended up selling all those outside Ontario and Quebec years later when they were strapped for cash.

I hope you enjoyed today's lesson. Class dismissed.

Arbalister

join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..

Re: that's fair

said by history lesson :

"By the end of 1880, Sise had purchased the existing telephone interests in Canada, including those of The Dominion Telegraph Company and The Montreal Telegraph Company. The company offered telephone service in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, and Manitoba and had interests in British Columbia."
You know, another 2 seconds work and you could have found out that Dominion Telegraph was a department of Public Works organization. They had wire strung all over Canada, up to the Yukon.

Public works.

Government funded. Taxpayer money.

SO, you've managed to prove that from day one, Bell Canada was using taxpayer provided facilities.

quote:
The National Bell Telephone Company of Boston eventually took the patent off Melville Bell's hands. The company enlisted the aid of Hugh C. Baker, head of the Hamilton District Telegraph Company, to apply for a charter from the Canadian Parliament. On April 29, 1880, a special act of Parliament incorporated the Bell Telephone Company of Canada.
A Charter from whom? Oh yes...the Canadian Parliament. This is that little piece of paper that give Bell the right to string wires all over public land. What other companies have that right? Um...hint: none of the independant ISPs.

Here's another beauty:
quote:
In 1990, however, the CRTC ruled that companies could buy time on private telephone lines in bulk from the phone companies and resell it at a discount. Within two years, the resellers had captured two to four percent of the phone companies' long-distance business. In 1992 the CRTC was expected to institute even greater changes in the long-distance market, such as allowing companies to resell discount packages like WATS. Resellers, however, wanted the CRTC to go further and allow them to own their own lines, an idea Bell Canada was fighting. Canadian Business quoted Bell Chairman Jean Monty as saying that '[the presence of resale means Canada already enjoys] a workable balance between competition and monopoly.'
Why don't we, as ISP's build out our own wire? Read that.

history lesson

@bell.ca

Re: that's fair

As far as I know, to become Incorporated you still need some level of government to issue it, so your leap of faith between Bell getting a Charter issued by the Fed as an indication of being "funded" by the Fed is completely wrong.

And although Dominion Telegraph Co was a division of the Government at the time, Bell bought them after the fact.

You and others make it sound as if Bell was 100% funded and built it's network with taxpayer money which is a complete misnomer and false.

nonrevisionist

@cgocable.net

Re: that's fair

You (Deadpool?) and TK make it sound as if Bell was 100% funded and built using private funds. It wasn't. Not even close.

You (Deadpool?) and TK make it sound as if Bell did not receive and abuse exclusive access to public works and rights of way. Absolutely false.

The well-known BCE "about us" link is hardly a source.

El Quintron
Could you spare a consulting gig?

join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
Shill...

I'm sure Execs at Bell would love the Canadian public to swallow that one hook line and sinker.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.

andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
It's cost + 15%.If the competitors had access to the local loop then this would not be a problem.Its either this or unbundl the local loops like the EU did.We don't wanna be like the US and have just a bunch of monopolies,we want choice.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: that's fair

then starting building out your own company. MOT will sell you some Canopy devices to start doing that.

El Quintron
Could you spare a consulting gig?

join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Acanac

said by GOLFnSUN See Profile :

Why should Bell invest billions in infrastructure and then have the gov't force them to sell access to others at cost. That would be a disservice to their stockholders and an extremely stupid action by their management team.
Um because my tax dollars pay for that infrastructure, and continue to pay for it by funding an agency that invetibly rules in favor of said company?

Here's an idea: How about you learn about Canadian Telecom before sharing your infinite wisdom on it.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.

Billbo

@teksavvy.com

Re: that's fair

Um because my tax dollars pay for that infrastructure

Um, no, customer dollars do.

and continue to pay for it by funding an agency

Um, no, telecom companies do.

that invetibly rules in favor of said company

Um, you do realize that this article is about Bell going to Cabinet to try and get the politicians to overturn a series of CRTC rulings against said company?
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Why should Canada allow them to continue to operate in their country?

I say Canada should tell them they are sharing and they are going to continue to roll out the next generation network. And if they don't, then they will be stripped of their current network and will no longer be operating in Canada.

Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
clubs:
·BlueYonder Interne..
·Be There

said by GOLFnSUN See Profile :

Why should Bell invest billions in infrastructure and then have the gov't force them to sell access to others at cost. That would be a disservice to their stockholders and an extremely stupid action by their management team.
Sorry, forgot, all regulation bad, open market good, right?

If you're going to make that argument do it with fact, it's cost+ basis not just cost, that would be ridiculous.
chronoss2009

join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..

and does kevin crull know what hes doing or what

1st they outsource to people who dont have any idea what they talk about
"5 megabit is 500Kbytes/sec" LOL
scam1
breaching there contracts at will , with no penalties YET if your or i do it we get dinged anyhwere from 100-150$ each
scam2
( would look good that any comapny doing so that also breaches a contract ALSO has to pay that, ya thatwould change things wouldn't it)
NOW they want to drop us to 256kbit speed ( thats the speed full tilt all month to reach a 60GB cap roughly )
Man are they pushing there limits.
Funny how there own service NOW offers 100GB and rogers suddenly offers 95GB
leave bell altogehter DONT GIVE THEM ANYTHING

adisor19

join:2004-10-11

Bell needs to be broken up. PERIOD.

They are an out of control monopoly that is doing harm to the consumer and by extension, to the Canadian economy.

Adi

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online

CRTC Relatiation

If Bell Canada decides to pick up all their marbles and leave, the CRTC could very well fight back by breaking up the monopoly. Open the market to competitors at extremely favorable terms. Bell Canada is going to have to learn that when you are a regulated monopoly, you have to play by certain rules. If you don't like it, then give up your monopoly status and face real competition.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

AkFubar
Resistance is Futile

join:2005-02-28
Toronto Can.

Re: CRTC Relatiation

Agree! +1
zacron

join:2008-11-26
+2

sdgdf

@shawcable.net

Re: CRTC Relatiation

SHATTER THEM!!
koreyb

join:2005-01-08
Etobicoke, ON
+3!

adisor19

join:2004-10-11
Amen brother !!

Adi

El Quintron
Could you spare a consulting gig?

join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON


And the winner is...
GyroCaptain

join:2008-08-01
+4
lrtc

join:2004-06-05
Toronto

Re: CRTC Relatiation

Businesses are in business for one reason only, to make as much money as possible. I find it funny that you are so mad that they are acting this way. What were you expecting?

I'm a rogers user I don't see the difference between bell and rogers. I hate rogers and I am leaving them this month, I wouldn't go to bell either. As for competition there is price fixing everywhere. Look at the gas industry, or take a local retailer best buy and it's sister store futureshop. Look at the price fixing of lcd panels that was in the news all the manufactures which were in competition all had artificially high prices.

I know why you guys are mad, it's pointless nothing is going to change. Maybe when the cost of living becomes to high people will stand up or cut back.

I don't feel sorry for bell or any other company. They want to make as much money as possible, there is no social accountability just collusion.

nonrevisionist

@cgocable.net

Re: CRTC Relatiation

RE: expecting?

Proper (third-party, unbiased) regulation of a monopoly, as defined by our national laws and regulations. I find it funny that a seemingly well-versed pessimist chose to overlook this market requirement.
lrtc

join:2004-06-05
Toronto

Re: CRTC Relatiation

You can dream all you want. While we are on the topic of expectation, I wish for world peace. National laws another good point I think people should follow them, no more violence crimes, no more companies which scam shareholders.

In today's day and age I think that's an unrealistic expectation.

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online

said by lrtc See Profile :

Businesses are in business for one reason only, to make as much money as possible. I find it funny that you are so mad that they are acting this way. What were you expecting?
Yes businesses are in business to make money. In a fair market that is a perfectly reasonable goal. However, when you are talking about a regulated monopoly, the rules are different. Generally, for a guaranteed rate of return, a regulated monopoly is guaranteed an a exclusive market subject to regulation. Now, if said monopoly is willing to forgo their monopoly status and go head to head with other businesses on a level playing field than I see nothing wrong with then trying to make as much money as possible. Their competitors will keep them in line.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.
lrtc

join:2004-06-05
Toronto

Re: CRTC Relatiation

That's the thing, you believe in rules. Since when do companies follow rules and regulations. Even governments don't follow their own rules.

You are saying because they are regulated monopoly you expect them to just follow the rules. Rules and regulations will always be broken. Why do you think we have jails and a court system. This is not an ideal world, if Bell can cheat and lie to get ahead sure they will do it. Bell is going to do whatever it takes to take more money, regardless of "Regulations" or "Rules". My point is it doesn't matter if they are a regulated monopoly they are still going to try and do what they want.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable

Re: CRTC Relatiation

people in Canada want the same thing as here. They want the actual last mile providers build out the network and then be forced to sell it to some 3rd party provider for pennies on the dollar and then let them sell it for 110+ mark-up and the actual network owner not make a dime off it.

anonb

+9000

jeffster1970
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
clubs:
·magicjack.com
·Vonage
·Acanac
·Bell Sympatico

Good to know...

That my neighborhood will never be upgrade now. Bell sucks, has for the past few years, and will until everyone is long dead.

Maybe the government should use some of that stimulus and just rebuild the entire network and let Bell Canada rot in hell.
--
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

grayfox

join:2007-12-10
Whitby, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico

Re: Good to know...

said by jeffster1970 See Profile :

That my neighborhood will never be upgrade now. Bell sucks, has for the past few years, and will until everyone is long dead.

Maybe the government should use some of that stimulus and just rebuild the entire network and let Bell Canada rot in hell.
That's a great idea and it would create more jobs.. But it would be expensive and since were in recession I can't see that happening.

Trisomy21

join:2006-04-27
Kingston, ON

Re: Good to know...

Bell does everything in its power to fight innovation and change, it makes them more money. By keeping everyone in the dark ages, any new technologies implemented, even on a small scale can be jacked up in price.

I'd love nothing more than to see them crumble.

anonBC

@telus.net

Re: Good to know...

Don't let them hold us hostage
HeadSpinning

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

Bell...

Bell has no choice but to invest in their Next Generation Network. The cable companies are their real enemy. They're being quite disingenuous when they claim that allowing competitors access will deter them from making new investment.

They also claim that the 7, 10 and 16 meg profiles are offered *Only* on their Next Generation Network, which of course is complete nonsense. They offer these profiles from Host based DSLAMs as well.

Geez

@bell.ca

Re: Bell...

You cannot get 16 meg off DSLAM for the person that said that.

DrStrange
Technically feasible
Premium
join:2001-07-23
West Hartford, CT

Why does Bell Canada hate Canada and Canadians?

That threat sounds like economic terrorism to me.

It's time corporations thought about their customers and the country [or countries] they operate in before their bottom lines. If they can't do that, they should be run out of business.

Fatman

@rogers.com

Re: Why does Bell Canada hate Canada and Canadians?

Would love to see Bell taken out back and drown in the wash tub!! After neutralizing Bell, Robbers could use a good swift kick in the groin just because they are and as a warning of what's coming for them if they keep up with the schenagians they are so famous for.

I understand how Bell managed to achieve their monopoly status, but you'd think we'd 'uv learned before Robbers came along and all but did the same all over again!

And as an afterthought let's chuck the CRTC in with Bell and Robbers as I have the impression it spend alternate nights in bed with them, so, why not give them a touch of the tough love while we're passing it out!.

Thinman

@bell.ca

Re: Why does Bell Canada hate Canada and Canadians?

Add the Harperneoconartist party to the list and I'm in full agreement.

Fatman

@rogers.com

Re: Why does Bell Canada hate Canada and Canadians?

Can't do that, I'm a Conservative (note the big "C").
a1_Andy
Premium
join:2005-12-29
Peterborough, ON

Nothing on TV about it...(but CBC)

Rogers and Bell own most popular media outlets, I'm sure this won't make the news with the exception of the CBC. Monopoly is a understatement. Funny how Corporations can hold the Public/Government hostage and most people won't even hear about it.
GyroCaptain

join:2008-08-01

Er..

Um..someone for the love of God PLEASE explain to me what good it is to have a Fiber connection that is CAPPED and THROTTLED by Bell?!?

Quake110

join:2003-12-20
Ottawa, ON
·Velcom

Re: Er..

said by GyroCaptain See Profile :

Um..someone for the love of God PLEASE explain to me what good it is to have a Fiber connection that is CAPPED and THROTTLED by Bell?!?
To control the flow of information (not being a dumb pipe). To not invest in upgrades... anything is better to them than investing.

Profits...
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable

USA

Sounds like the USA we will only build out a new network if we don't sure it. Okay. ATT, VZ you get what you want. Everyone else, you get screwed, even if you have a cable company that wants to service you, because they hit their 30% market cap, but that's okay because many one day you'll have U-Verse.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage


2 edits

I used to have a blue box...

When I was in college I had a blue box that allowed me to make free phone calls, among other things. I built mine in a pocket calculator case. When you turned it on, the display said FUCH BELL (the best K you could make with a seven segment display). Seems to me that phrase is as relevant now as it was over 25 years ago, at least in Canada!

Wake up

@aliant.net

get the facts

The margins on Broadband are very low. Those that think they are not are not informed.

The infrastructure, maintenance, transport, provisioning, billing, and support costs with providing reliable high speed access, especially in a country as widespread as Canada are huge.

The illusion that the telcos are making fantastic profits is plain wrong - look at their annual reports. Flat revenue growth and raising costs.

An investment of billions by a private enterprise should be left alone for them to use. Thats the only way there will be an incentive to invest.

If there were so much profit to be made why wouldn't there be a list of companies providing this service and investing in fiber?

Me3423423

@hbs.edu

Canada is big

You keep forgetting that CapEx for Canada per person is WAAAAYYY higher than in other countries.

Given the large land mass and dispersed population, Bell's investment is much less efficient than in the US (where the same geography has 10x the population). As a result, Bell should be allowed to keep more revenue if they're going to wire the country end-to-end.

Why don't the small ISPs start laying cable instead of bottom-feeding and complaining?
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable

Re: Canada is big

because that would make sense and nobody wants that. they want the big evil Bell and Roger's Family to do that. Besides companies like Teksavvy would have to spend money and we can't have that because they're too busy working on their own Dish TV services.

DrugSkill

join:2005-11-14
Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu, QC
·Videotron


2 edits
said by Me3423423 :

You keep forgetting that CapEx for Canada per person is WAAAAYYY higher than in other countries.

Given the large land mass and dispersed population, Bell's investment is much less efficient than in the US (where the same geography has 10x the population). As a result, Bell should be allowed to keep more revenue if they're going to wire the country end-to-end.

Why don't the small ISPs start laying cable instead of bottom-feeding and complaining?
You are right if you take rural regions into account, but urban zones are not that dispersed. By saying US has 10x the population for the same geography, you also take allot of un-occupied territory into account. Those zones don't need and don't have any wiring at all. In the end, that doesn't really make sense.

Back 4-10 years ago, the ISPs were actually offering a better service and there were less users. No cap, no throttling, just a little less speed. Does that cost more in wiring for more users in urban centers that already had broadband anyway? I don't think so. Does it cost more in server equipment? Surely. But that didn't stop them from investing even more in electronic equipment and technology that actually undermine the quality of the service for their customers.

Technology is probably the reason why they didn't put restrictive measures at the start. I remember Videotron not being able to monitor traffic usage for some types of modem back then. The same goes for throttling.

The Speed competition between the ISPs probably helped to create that. 'We have more speed, we are the fastest.' But written in very small characters on the bottom of the screen it says, 'Your restricted to only 20gig a month, but probably don't give a fuck since your only an average user that only wants his webpages to load as fast as possible.' More speed, less usability. I'm just speculating, but that's pretty much what it looks like.

Back some years ago, you had the choice to have the fastest capped shit, that offers special features, like being able to watch secret webcams in reality shows like Star Academy and Loft Story(let me laugh) with Videotron, or have less speedy, uncapped service, without special features from Bell. The choice was clear, Bell all the way. That was the good old days, now it sucks everywhere you look.
carnesr

join:2002-11-16
Sault Ste Marie, ON

re

you know all this bickering about where th money came from is pointless bell built it or bought it and there for they own it, this whole they uses money from government so the government should be able to tell them what they do with it is no different then some one getting a grant from the government to start up a company cause they developed the perfect replacement for windows then told they have to share the code with competitors, to put it simple bell owns it and should not have to share the network with other company's if they wanna provide the same services they should build there own network,

DrugSkill

join:2005-11-14
Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu, QC

Re: re

Learn punctuation, then maybe you will have some credibility in saying what is pointless and what is not.

gdogg

join:2006-02-06
39123
Under my laws.
Monopoly's have no rights.
Thus , all that is theirs, is mine !
carnesr

join:2002-11-16
Sault Ste Marie, ON

Re: re

said by gdogg See Profile :

Under my laws.
Monopoly's have no rights.
Thus , all that is theirs, is mine !
its a good thing then that bell is not a monopoly
Forums » Bell Canada To Take Ball, Go Home


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